Ruby Glaskin & Nassy Konan

Transcript

Sally Rose Welcome to the Producer Gathering podcast, where we’ve invited conversations between independent producers in the cultural sector to talk through the issues we are facing right now. We are developing a collection of resources, case studies, events and training opportunities to support, develop, nurture and sustain producers that reflect the diversity of our communities. More info can be found at www dot producer gathering dot com. In this episode, Ruby Glaskin and Nassy Konan talk about international producing, reflecting on their shared and individual experiences of it and issues like: how to look after people on the road? Who is and isn’t in the room or the country? Demystifying Networking and Relationship Building, taking a global not just a local view of work,  journeys in routes around and considering the environmental impact, their ambitions and their top tips. 

Ruby Glaskin Hello. I’m Ruby Glaskin. I’m an independent producer based in Brighton. I’m a white woman with long bleached hair. I’m wearing dark rimmed glasses and a green jumper. Nassy?

Nassy Konan My name is Nassy. I am a creative producer based in Birmingham, but originally from London. Born and bred. I am a black woman with curly brown hair. I’m black. And I’m wearing a brown fleece right now. And we’re here, I think, today to talk about international producing work. So I guess we thought we’d talk, we’d start a little bit by talking about about our ways into producing and specifically international producing. Yeah. What are your ways into producing independently? 

Ruby Glaskin Ruby So I’ve been producing independently for, oh gosh, like over 12 years now, which is scary how quickly time goes. But yeah, I started by running as a company. I started a company called Milk Presents after graduating from uni, and within that I kind of found myself, I guess, in like a producer role, although at the time I didn’t realise that that’s what I was doing. And then after a few years, realised that that was a job, that I could do that, and so from that point kind of started to specialise I guess, in producing and not only producing for my own company but producing for other artists. And so over the years I guess I’ve just worked with a lot of different artists and projects and venues and kind of grown a portfolio of producing work and sometimes that’s involved like shows, sometimes that’s involved, I’ve worked for artist development programs. I used to run an artist development program in the East Midlands called In Good Company. And then I guess through that, I mean, I’ve also done a lot of specifically queer work, producing queer work, and working with queer artists because that’s the work that Milk Presents focussed on. But I guess kind of through my work with Milk and through the other independent producing work that I did, I have also started to work internationally and some of that came quite organically, like Milk Presents, shows toured to Australia and to other places in Europe. So some of that happens through just kind of organic interest in shows, but then some of that’s also happened through, I guess like putting myself out there a little bit. Like one of the first things I did actually with Sally, who’s the producer of this podcast, was to do the IETM Campus, which was specifically looking at producers who were interested in like expanding their international outreach a little bit and building those networks. So there’s been kind of certain, I guess, like catalysing projects or opportunities that I’ve put myself forward for that then built international networks and kind of found myself in that more international sphere. So it’s been a mixture of that really. And then I guess in recent years I’ve been working with Pro Helvetia, the Swiss Arts Council, to run a platform for Swiss artist in Edinburgh. And I guess that’s really where like the bulk of my real kind of experience in like international producing has come in terms of that like cross-cultural exchange, working between two different like cultural landscapes in Switzerland, in the UK, and navigating some of the differences and all of that – so I guess which will come on to talk about. But yeah, I guess that is a really quick brief snapshot and insight into what how I got into it and what I’ve been doing. But yeah, what about you? 

Nassy Konan I’m a producer working across theatre, dance and live performance. At the heart of my practice, I specialise in producing new work and introducing it to diverse audiences. I’ve previously been a recipient of the Jerwood Arts Live Work Fund in 2021, which was to support my practice during the COVID pandemic. Since then, I have been working as a freelancer for the last four years, I would say, and have had extensive experience in touring work to many venues and festivals around the UK and internationally. I started working at Battersea Arts Centre as a touring assistant and then progressed into like a coordinator role, then programmer and then I guess producer. I would say one of my most proudest moments would be to be working on the development and touring of BAC’s Beatbox production, Frankenstein, How to Make a Monster. And we toured Tourette’s Hero’s Not I by Samuel Beckett to Under the Radar Festival in New York, and Push Festival in Vancouver. Through lockdown I co-founded Dropped Tea Theatre making work that celebrates and amplifies London’s lost voices through multidisciplinary forms of storytelling in gentrified communities. The project was called Knocked Down, which was a promenade site specific production, which was a journey for audiences to go along down areas, well known to areas that have been gentrified such as Brixton and Peckham. It was a collaboration between local talent and local businesses to celebrate and explore the memories of stories of those who call the area home. The main premise of it was for us to commission local artists who have a relationship to the area. I’m currently working with Seeta Patel Dance on The Rite of Spring and with Stravinsky’s live music score performed by the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra. The piece was performed by 12 dancers on stage. I really enjoyed working on the production with a big team and as the project manager I am working alongside the producer, we found it really interesting and eye opening for us to know how we can tour the work regionally and internationally. I’ve recently started working with a new producing house company called Opus, based in Birmingham, and they are the producers for the Birmingham Festival, which it will be a ten day festival celebrating the local talent in Birmingham following the Commonwealth Games. There’ll be live performances and live events and it will be in the summer. I have also worked as producer for the Swiss Art Council Pro Helvetia to produce the Swiss Selection Edinburgh and the Swiss Selection Live. That was an amazing opportunity to really delve into international artists exchange and collaboration with venues who have the the the knowledge and the expertise in supporting artists development. 

Ruby Glaskin Yeah, And I think actually the reason that I first got in touch with you about working with me at Pro Helvetia was because I was aware that you’d already been doing some stuff internationally, like I knew that you’d be, I think I think it was Twitter or I didn’t know how, but for some reason I was aware that you were working in Brussels and that you were kind of like very much like already kind of developing a network internationally. And that was, I guess I was thinking, who could work with me on this project? And I was like, Oh, I want to work with someone that’s already kind of understands what other like contexts in Europe might be like and kind of that can bring that understanding to it. But yeah, that was definitely, I don’t know, I think there’s definitely like something where you after a period of time, people begin to know that you’ve got some experience working internationally and then it kind of accumulates because then people think, Oh well, actually Nassy is going to know the answers to these questions or Nassy’s going to be able to link up with this person or this person. And I guess, yeah, a lot of it kind of once again, from like that original IETM campus that I did with Sally, and I think you’ve subsequently done an IETM campus as well Nassy, but like that also again like you meet some people, some conversations happen and maybe like nothing happens straight away, but like over the years, actually you orbit the same people again and again and it’s that your network starts to build. 

Nassy Konan Yeah, I think as part of me developing myself in, you know, in the international producing as an independent and like being able to apply for the DYCP, developing your creative practice. And that allows me to be able to, you know, go to Brussels and meet programming teams and shadow an Argentinian producer in her like her own Latin American Arts Festival and as well as working as a producer for Horizon Showcase. And I don’t know, yeah you’ve got it in hand! [Laughter]

Ruby Glaskin Not always, not always! But I think there’s also like, yeah, definitely a difference between the types of international producing as well that we’ve both done. Like I think a lot of my experience, especially with like with Pro Helvetia, has been like on building connections, relationships and bringing international artists to the UK, whereas like my experience with Milk Presents was very much about learning how to tour a show that’s been made in the UK to other countries and learning how to finance that and learning what you do, what you need, how all of that works. And I think similarly, Nassy like you’ve kind of had a bit of both experiences as well, like you’ve done quite a bit of relationship building, but also you’ve been working on UK tours that are then going internationally and vice versa. 

Nassy Konan I think the context of like touring internationally is so different to what it is regionally, touring with Tourette’s Hero and being able to like talk about, you know, the relaxed venue model and like how you just talk about that in a – so that people can understand why it’s different in the UK and how it works internationally because people want to learn and know more about that. 

Ruby Glaskin There’s so much more to international producing in a way because of you’ve got those cultural differences, sometimes all those different settings. So like when we’re touring a show nationally and actually there’s often differences between what venues or artists expect anyway. But you also then like navigating the fact that, yeah, in Switzerland or wherever, like there are, there’s a different conversation around access happening or there’s a different need for different conversations on representation happening, all of that. So like you’re yes, you’re like doing the practical producing of like, okay, we need to negotiate the contracts, we need to book everyone’s accommodation, we need to work on travel. But you’re also doing like the more like nebulous, like conversations around, Yeah, like what does access look like if we put this show in this venue or what does audience engagement mean? Or like how, how are people people paying for tickets, you know, like all of this stuff that is just like, varied from wherever you are. Like, again, the artists that you’re working with will have like a certain expectation because that’s the culture that they work in. And then when you’re putting them into a different culture, you’ve then got to navigate that difference. 

Nassy Konan The cultural differences of like when we when we when we went to we did the London showcase, the Swiss London showcase of Brixton House, and then we had one of the shows which was, you know there was things about the show that wouldn’t suit the UK audience that we had to then kind of change that in order to be like, Oh, this is the way it is, and how you have to talk to the artists in order for them to understand. And they’re really open to it, they’re like, Oh, I didn’t even know that. You know, being in an environment with loads more white people I know I’m a person of colour can sometimes feel really hard to navigate when you’re not trying to be like; you know, this is how it should be or like trying to make it into a situation when actually you don’t want that to be. You just you’re just sharing the knowledge of what it is to produce a showcase in a different narrative of, you know, platform. Yeah. 

Ruby Glaskin Yeah, totally. And I think because those conversations that you the Yeah, we have to have when we’re having these discussions about you have to say, okay, well this is the context that this work is sitting in when it’s in the UK. And I totally like for you Nassy like that’s also doubly difficult when you’re like one of the only person of colour in that in that conversation or the only …because actually it’s actually not a, it feels, I can imagine it can come across as feeling like that’s a personal reflection, I think that actually that’s the context. But when it’s like you’re the only person in that room that is like saying that, then it becomes a whole different thing. And I think those things definitely were like, yeah, they were big things that we were navigating. So just for context, I guess like me and Nassy first worked together on bringing a showcase of Swiss work to Brixton House in London. It was supposed to go to Edinburgh, but obviously for COVID and pandemic things we ended up doing in London and that was like some of the really big conversations that we were having about like, how does this work sit in Brixton House for London audiences, for, you know, for also like the artists in that venue, but also how are we then also being careful not to project or change the work? 

Nassy Konan Yeah. 

Ruby Glaskin Like, or you know, and especially because again, the artists that we worked with actually on that showcase were diverse artists, artists of colour and like again, it’s like, how do you really carefully navigate like conversations around how, yeah, how work is received without like, without judgement. Yeah. And without, like accidentally like censoring artists or feeling like their work needs to change because of that. But it’s more like, how do you, yeah, we had a lot of talk around, like, how are we preparing the audience or like, how are we looking after the audience so that that work… and actually in the end the work was really well received and like in a way that we hoped it would be, but there was a lot of discussion. It was exciting. Like there was, you know, there were there were split opinions for sure, but it was like it was a very different, like landscape and different community to be part of. And it’s not that Switzerland isn’t multicultural at all. I think it’s actually more multicultural than from what I’ve experienced and what what is assumed. But it’s still Brixton is a particular place in particular. 

Nassy Konan Yeah. 

Ruby Glaskin You know, and it was definitely like a different place to situate that work. 

Nassy Konan So why did it feel important to you? For us to work internationally? 

Ruby Glaskin Its challenging, like in that respect, like I think I’ve learned over the course of working to bring Swiss artists over here, like it’s put me in situations where I’m like, Oh, I’ve not encountered this before. I’m having to think really differently, actually, and think beyond my own situation a lot of the time, which I think you do anyway as a producer and making art, but I think when you’re working internationally, you’re you’re having to do that like thrice fold and think about like actually there’s the context of Switzerland, there’s a context of here, there’s the context of the artist, the context of the other people working, the venue, you know, there’s so many different things that come into play that I think it kind of forces you to be always on your toes and to be always, yeah, looking around and yeah, kind of having those discussions that maybe you don’t always have to have as much when you’re not working internationally because there’s things that’s taken as a given or things that are just not questioned, you know, whereas suddenly things come into play where you’re like, Oh, I’ve never been asked that question before, or I’ve never had to consider this thing before or I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t know. What do you think? Do you agree with that? 

Nassy Konan Yeah, I think for me, like having the opportunity to go to so many international festivals and seeing how there isn’t enough like people like me in those spaces and so it I feel like the reason why it’s important is because I feel like I can transfer my skills to other producers of colour and have those conversations with other international producers and be like, What is it that we can do in order to continue to collaborate more widely? Just support more artists. 

Ruby Glaskin But also that I think in terms of like realising that people are having these conversations globally is really important. Like, you know, what you’re saying about kind of there being just other producers of colour in the room and realising that there will be other producers of colour globally who are having the same conversation as you… 

Nassy Konan But they’re not in the room!  

Ruby Glaskin Exactly, totally. And then to be like, okay, well it’s important for you to do that, to be able to like hopefully try to get those people in the room to show that it’s possible and like, but to also realise that like, yeah, these conversations are different in different context, but also like global and we should be not just looking like to the people right next to us, actually, sometimes the conversations that we can have with people in other contexts like can Yeah, like I guess I’m also thinking about some of the stuff that has happened after some of the showcases we’ve done here for the Swiss artists, like there’s been realisations about teams that they’re working with and how stuff can be made from like actually having an example Nassy of working with you and working with the team at Brixton house and realising that like there’s a whole different way of doing things that they potentially weren’t necessarily aware could be possible because we had the example when we had the showcase at Brixton House and people saw that different people were working in that building and there was a different way of producing and making work that did then prompt artists to change the people that they were working with, or the approach that they were doing, and to realise that like actually there was another way and they almost needed to break out of the Swiss scene to see that. 

Nassy Konan 100% and the one thing that I love is that artists coming from abroad and being able to then just like reflect and think about, Oh, what is it that I can do differently to change my own like platform somewhere else? And I think that’s one thing that’s really inspiring in some in some ways, because then it really pushes the conversation around, you know, who’s who’s presenting work internationally. I think that’s one thing that, you know, if we could change it, the one thing I would change would be like would be me yeah more people like me and more honest conversations about what what needs to be done. Like, but I feel like sometimes it’s really hard to navigate those conversations. 

Ruby Glaskin Yeah, totally. And I think also because I think there’s always been a sense in this country anyway of like the international touring and international collaboration being this quite like gatekeeper-y area. 

Nassy Konan Yeah. 

Ruby Glaskin Like, I think this felt for a long time since I’ve been producing that like international touring is like the Holy Grail, but it’s very gatekeepered and like there’s only like the British Council and the Caravan showcase, and if you don’t get into those, then there’s absolutely no chance that your work will ever, you know, tour or whatever. And I think we’re like, we’re slowly starting to see some change, but I think that has also had a knock on effect of like who is actually doing international producing and who is actually like able to open those those doors. And I think actually Nassy like you are one of those people now that is able to open those doors. But I don’t think that was like the case like five years ago, you know, like it was a certain group of mainly, I would say mainly white men in certain organisations that were like the gatekeepers to pretty much every single international opportunity that companies could get in this country. So I think like definitely you are being you are part of the change like in that way. But I think there needs to be way more of that and like it needs to be that needs to be recognised for sure. 

Nassy Konan I also feel like the work that we’ve done with, like, you know, Swiss artists that have gone like since the showcase in Edinburgh and in London, you know, they’ve gone off and made really great collaborations in London with, you know, venues that we respect and love that support international artists. Um. Yeah, a wide range of them. So I feel like that’s really important to be proud of the fact that we’ve actually done it [laughs] and some people don’t think that it’s that easy to do when actually you just need to connect with people who want to actually make that change. 

Ruby Glaskin I think no, I think you’re right in that like, again, this like weird, mystical, like holy grail of like, what is international touring? Like, how do I get my tour and like, what I’ve learned from the work that we’ve been doing with Pro Helvetia is like it’s actually just about building relationships and connections. And actually anybody can do that, like, I wish that I’d had the foresight like five or ten years ago, like when I was producing Milk and the other artists I worked with to just be like, I’m just going to research some like venues or some people and like, see if I know anyone that could like make an introduction because actually, like, it’s not about waiting for these, like big platform events its actually sometimes about just, it’s just about getting to know people and having that exchange and then like and I think that’s where we’ve had success with what we’ve been doing with Swiss stuff is just like making these introductions, making people aware of what’s going on and like, it’s not that that work is going to be a great fit necessarily, first off, but like just to sort of build knowledge and awareness and and networks is, is really like that’s it! Not like this precious thing that needs to be kept secret. It’s just chatting to people, essentially!

Nassy Konan Being able to like, be in the same room with these international programmers and presenters who are just like you and me, who like want to get a new like vibe and life of people on their platforms. I’ve spent so much time, I love festivals and I love international festivals, so I’ve spent most of my time really young like just researching a be like, I want to go there one day! I want to go and do this. And now it’s like I’ve been able to do that because of the passion and the drive and like, and you as well, like the work that we see speaks to us it’s, you know, it’s important. And I feel like you have those international stories that have some sort of relevance to us right now. 

Ruby Glaskin I, like when you say, you love festivals – I know that’s true because…

Nassy Konan [Laughter]

Ruby Glaskin … like in a beautiful way I know that’s true because I’ve seen you. And I think that’s also why international producing is like so many different skill qualities to it, aAnd I’ve seen you in festivals and the way that you are able to just have that conversation with someone in the bar or after the show or whatever and it will I know that that then transforms into a long term working relationship. Like I know that that moment, that’s what you’re doing and you’re so great at it. 

Nassy Konan I don’t even know that I’m doing it though! Like, I think it just bumps in my head where I just think of an artist, and I’ll be like, you know, this artist would actually be really good for your festival? And they go ‘Yeah’!? And that’s what I love about it. It’s like meeting people and just like IETM for example, we spend so much time in sessions talking about what international producing should be or and talking about so much about diversity and inclusion, but not actually doing the action. I feel like most of the great conversations come out of those spaces. Everyone’s guard is down and and you know, everyone’s open enough to just be like, you know, this is what I want, this is what I’m interested in and this is what I’m about. What should an international festival look like and what people will be in the bar later on and be able to be like, Hey, what’s going on? Or like, share like share more knowledge. And I feel like there’s a gap around that. 

Ruby Glaskin Totally and I think, yeah, I think you’re right. Like we do a lot of the time we pack these sorts of like international schedules around like, yeah, roundtable discussions and all of that, which is, is useful to have but like you say, I think actually in a way, like if you’re working internationally or you’re at an international festival, like those discussions are happening because of the producing that you’re doing. Like again, like all the discussions we had to have around the Swiss showcases those discussions, things are happening in situ. And also there’s something about being in a place that is not your home country, that also builds connections with the people that you’re with, that allows those relationships almost to like fast track a little bit because you’re in Brussels or Switzerland or Polverigi, where me and Sally were like in a tiny Italian village. And like they’re sometimes the things that make the relationship or the connection really strong because you’re kind of sharing this unique experience together or of like witnessing a different culture or being in an unfamiliar place and that builds a, a relationship that you can’t necessarily get from a roundtable or a Zoom call or an email. 

Nassy Konan With IETM, it’s so academic the way people speak, and it’s really hard to understand. I found that really hard as someone you know, I didn’t go to university, I, I had to learn on the job. And so I feel a lot more relaxed being able to have these conversations around representation and what the differences is around other places. And I and I have felt that being some international conferences where there are other people like me who don’t say much in those spaces because they don’t feel like they will be heard. I think that’s something that it’s tricky, but also it’s important to have that. 

Ruby Glaskin Yeah, I remember that of the IETM that we met at Nassy, I remember literally having to Google like the definition of most of the like plenary session. It was like the I think it was like populism or something. Like it was like all of the titles of the sessions. I was like, I, I don’t know what this means [Laughter] Becuase I knew like a few people that like I didn’t feel overwhelmed. But I think if I’d gone alone to that and seen the titles of those sessions, fuck me, I’m out of my depth like I probably should be here. 

Nassy Konan Yeah. I guess it’s always the same people in those rooms as well. In those, Yeah, in those rooms, in the spaces. And it’s really hard to navigate that because you don’t want someone to turn around. Well, I know it’s happened before in IETM where someone said something and then they go: No, that’s wrong. [laugh] and you’re like, Whoa, shock! Like, what’s going on here? Like, we’re just coming together and having a conversation and trying to make change. 

Ruby Glaskin Because it’s an international context. People are coming to these conversations from such different places. You know, we’ve also experienced that as well. Like and, and you definitely have in other situations that you spoken to me about, but like, people are coming from totally leftfield places sometimes just because of the cultural context that they’re in. And it can be really hard to then to then like speak in that situation, especially like if you feel if you’re the only person of colour, or if you’re one of the only queer people or whatever, like in that situation, like it can feel really like, Oh God, like how am I supposed to navigate this? Because it’s so far from the place of thinking that I’m coming from. 

Nassy Konan I feel like when I’ve been in those situations, I felt really protected by you because I was I remember in some cases in Edinburgh, I was just like, I can’t have this conversation with anyone. And I feel like I’ve done that with you. and I think it’s really important that, you know, that you protect each other around that because there isn’t enough of us to be able to get there. You know? 

Ruby Glaskin Super sad in a way that that’s the reality of where we’re at, where you have to feel like you’ve already got like an ally in the room to then be able to navigate that, which it shouldn’t be because yeah, you shouldn’t be in that that minority. But that is the reality of where we are and I think it’s also good that we like we have to acknowledge that because if we don’t acknowledge that that’s the reality, then people will continue to think that this is fine, like Nassy’s in the room. That’s okay. You know what I mean? 

Nassy Konan Yeah. 

Ruby Glaskin You can learn from those situations and other people can learn from these situations as well. And I think sometimes you don’t necessarily, again, because of international work as so, like sprawling, you know, the sad thing is, is that you don’t necessarily know the change that might have happened from that interaction, that thing – ,you’re not necessarily ever going to know that. But you have to hope in some ways that there has been a shift or a change. But yeah. 

Nassy Konan Yeah, definitely. 

Ruby Glaskin So I guess, like what what would be your hopes and ambitions for international producing or for your own international producing in the future? 

Nassy Konan I worked on Nouveau Riche Queens of Sheba and I was an associate producer there, at Soho Theatre, and now they’re in New York under the Radar Festival! And I’m like, that that would be, you know, having the opportunity to be able to produce that in the UK context and then seeing it go internationally, my hope that one day I could tour my own show, my own company and yeah, and just be in those spaces and be proud of that and know that I’ve done something, that kind of links in with my ambition, which is to be a producer that works internationally from people from my background so that I feel like I’m doing that work and opening, you know, having those important conversations about inclusivity and representation on stage, because I think that’s just, you know, my my whole thing about producing is because I’m able to give a platform to artists that I love. I just love being able to be in a different culture and environment, and and because I’m, you know, I am multicultural, like, I’m, you know, my parents are from Ivory Coast and West Africa and so it’s it’s really important to me that it’s just nice to just be, like to learn something about someone’s culture is very important to me. 

Ruby Glaskin Yeah, mine would be, yeah, I think I think like over the last few years, I’ve really we’ve kind of touched on it already. But like this idea of like, I don’t know, I feel like my ambition for international producing in general is to sort of like try to demystify it a little bit and just sort of try to make it seem as accessible as possible to as many different artists and producers. And I still think we’ve got quite a way to go with that. So I sort of feel like and some of the stuff that I’ve been doing recently around just sort of like network building and making introductions in this sort of like soft way of like bringing people together feels really exciting. And I sort of feel like I really hope that maybe in the future it doesn’t feel like this area that’s like gatekeepered and that only a certain few people, especially artists in the UK, because I think especially since Brexit, I think we’ve always been quite insular and I think even more so now, it feels really difficult to think outwardly and I would love it to be in a place where like, you know, artists just five years or so into their practice are like feeling like international touring and collaboration is possible, feeling that they know someone in Brussels or they know someone in Germany or in Canada and like just feeling like that’s much more common because I think currently it’s still like artists ten, 20 years into their careers are still feeling like, I don’t know anybody outside of England to approach. And I just think like that would be really nice to build that like as a very much part of making work in this country is that you actually you’re also, already looking internationally. 

Nassy Konan Yeah, we’ve talked about doing some sort of supporting artists in the realms of artist exchange and being like one of those connectors to, you know, venues and festivals because that feels like a gap at the moment in international producing and, you know, I feel like we share that quite a lot between us. And it would be amazing for us to start a collective wouldn’t it, a producers collective! 

Ruby Glaskin Yeah Nassy – we gotta do it, we gotta do it! 

Nassy Konan No, but what would be your top tips for International producing. Let me say mine. I’ll say mine, oh my God, visas. They used to hurt my head [laughs] And I recently just started working with Seeta Patel dance on her new show, Rite of Spring, and for the first time in my life, I was able to be like, Wow, Like I smashed it out at the park!!I was just like, yes [laughs] you know do it as early as possible because and I think it takes a lot of research. We’ve done that with Swiss, but I think now I feel a lot more confident than I did when I was working at Sadler’s Wells, for example, you know, having to work with, you know, around 40 dancers, black dancers from different parts of the African countries. And yeah, so for me, it just feels, yeah, do it as early as possible and it takes time as well. And practice. 

Ruby Glaskin Yeah. I’m coming to you when I need to do Visa’s [laughter] because I’ve had to do very little of them so far. And every time anyone mentions visas to me, I, like, come out in hives and I’m like, Oh, no. Like, I’m going to have to do a visa application. So, yeah, Nassy I’m coming to you!

Nassy Konan I shouldn’t have said that I should?! [laughter] Please, no Producers come to me about doing visas! What’s yours?  

Ruby Glaskin Well, I guess I’m similarly, like in terms of visas taking time. I think, like, you can’t underestimate the the length of time it takes to set up an international project. And that, like, just the longer lead in time you have, the better on on everything from fundraising to booking travel to all of that stuff. But I guess also what I’ve also found is there’s also like a certain amount of it you often can’t do until quite close to the date. So it’s like also about holding your nerve a little bit and being like, okay, I’m going to try and plan as much as possible as I can, but at the same time, you kind of have to have the like the resilience to hold your nerve and just be like, okay, there are just some things that aren’t going to fall into place until the week before or until everyone’s actually here doing it. Like there’s some things we’re not going to know. And so I think build in as much time as you can, but hold your nerve as well. 

Nassy Konan Another one for me is about audience reach, because there is a lot of international work out there that I don’t think well, I would say think about the production themes, like your demographic and just like how you can take care of the audience, but also take care of the artists. So like doing workshops and focus groups and just delving into more of the, the projects or the show. 

Ruby Glaskin Yeah, yeah. Thinking about audiences because I think a lot of the time with international stuff, like it’s so much just about the like the setting up the exchange between the venue or the artist or whatever that like the audiences, can often get weirdly quite forgotten with it. And so like, and making sure that you’ve got like really strong stuff for when it comes to actually selling the show because especially if you’re bringing international work here in the UK, like we’re not actually that great at going to see international work here. It’s not like it’s a big selling point. Like if people don’t know the artists, like it doesn’t matter if they come from Brussels or or Canada or whatever, like if they don’t know the artists, like they’re probably not going to come and see it unless it’s like exciting to them. 

Nassy Konan Yeah know, the show that you’re going to sell, like just don’t put it as part of your program because you think that’s going to make you some big bucks!

Ruby Glaskin Yeah, totally. I think just like talking like, I know that sounds really stupid, but like, I know and I learned this from you, actually Nassy where like, I am a I have a habit of sending a lot of emails and they’re really great and emails are great because you’ve got it written down and all the information is in a place and you can find it. But I think sometimes when it comes to like international exchange and like I found actually the times when I’ve just jumped on the phone or had a zoom or like had a meeting where you’ve actually been able to really like talk about the context that the work is coming to, to talk about the work itself. Like it clears up so many questions or misconceptions. And I think it’s especially important when the work is international and when it’s, you’re taking it to a place that is different from where it’s been made, like there can be so many unexpected things. And we had this before Fringe as well – like there was I mean, in some ways there was absolutely no amount of meetings we could have had really to prepare artists that have never been to Fringe, what Fringe is like, but the meetings that we did have and the discussions that we did have, I think it did at some point, like if we hadn’t have had those discussions, it would have been even harder, I think, for the artists to really understand what it is. So yeah, I think just like making sure you have actual conversations with people about the work, with the artists who are taking the work with the venues, who are receiving the work, getting them together, and really just making sure that they can really talk out some of the like misunderstandings or the the expectations they have that might not actually be true and all of that kind of stuff. 

Nassy Konan On the other side of that, we had this, you know, working with Pro Helvetia with Swiss artists, where it became more about them not worrying about what people thought and just enjoying the experience of being able to be in front, you know, being in Edinburgh, you know, this it’s, you know, you going to see so many international faces and so being able to just interact with audience without feeling like, Oh my God, they hate my work! But just like just enjoying the process of being on stage and having those conversations with people and like experiencing what you’ve made happen is important. I would say. 

Ruby Glaskin Building in time for people to be together, like not just like, you know, you’re really good at making sure when we’re, you know in Edinburgh that we all sat down and had a meal with all of the artists and like, you know, we all did things together. And I think that also like makes a massive difference to just, the quality of experience and again, like the richness of why it’s important to perform your work internationally like and I think those things can get lost in the like we’re doing the shows, we’re like doing this, that or whatever. 

Nassy Konan Exactly. Accessibility is considered in any international work that you are touring or producing. I think that’s one of my big ones. 

Ruby Glaskin Totally. 

Nassy Konan Being kind and open! 

Ruby Glaskin Again I have, I know when I’ve been kind and open and when I also potentially haven’t because of stress or whatever, like situations and like it’s it makes such a difference. And I also know from some of the artists and producers I work with internationally, you get you’re like, oh, there’s there’s some artists that come into it that we’ve worked with, both with such kindness and openness and like, you know, when you’re nervous about we’ve had, you know, there’s been times when we’ve been nervous to have a conversation about a bit of content in the show or whatever. And when that’s been met with like an absolute open and kind response has been like incredible and you’re suddenly like, oh wow, like this is so nice to have this exchange with an artist who’s open to this discussion as opposed to we’ve also had conversations with producers who are not necessarily open and kind to those those discussions, and it’s a totally different situation. 

Nassy Konan I feel like scheduling time when you’re travelling is very important because we spend most of our time like going to the hotel and then going back out, but not having time to rest because if you don’t rest, then how you able to have these conversations with people who are on the same wavelength as you, or being able to go for a meal with the artists and, and yeah, I think it’s just all about rest, but also looking after your mental health. 

Ruby Glaskin Yeah. And I think I’m I’m this is something that you’ve already not mentioned in the session but I know that you’ve written down, but so I’m not going to take the credit for this but I love what you say to think about your budget as a moral document. And I think that’s so true with international producing because there’s so many costs like it is expensive when you’re touring internationally and there can be so many areas where you start to cut costs because there isn’t enough funding or whatever and I just think like that’s like seeing your budget as this moral document like that just is it rings so true to me because you can so easily start to like, cut things out and then suddenly this international exchange that’s meant to be incredibly fulfilling and inspiring can actually become really not, and really unhealthy and pretty difficult. 

Nassy Konan It’s your it’s your baby, that people could say and 

Ruby Glaskin Yeah. 

Nassy Konan So when you’re building the budget, it’s always worth, you know, when I said before about scheduling your rest time after travelling like you can build that in if you’re someone who has personal access, you know, people don’t think that you can do that, but you can you can put that in your budget, you know, to look after people. And which is something that I’ve recently learned, like while doing, you know, international producing. 

Ruby Glaskin And it comes into also like looking after the world as well because I think there’s a big question that everybody who’s working internationally, which we haven’t really touched on this discussion, but like around like the environmental impacts of travel and all of that and like to build into your budget enough time, like if it’s possible to like travel by train to that country instead of by plane. And that might mean that you have to pay everybody for like an extra a day or two of travel days or whatever – but actually is that is really what, you know, maybe we should be doing if it’s possible to do that and all of those sorts of things that like, yeah, unfortunately often taking the more sustainable route is more expensive, but I guess is also something that we should really be thinking about if our budget is, our  moral document, like how do we how do we do that? 

Nassy Konan Definitely. Yeah. I think with international producing, it’s never good to rush it because what you don’t want to happen is you didn’t think about certain things that you should have thought about beforehand before bring artists or a company over to an international country. But also scheduling as well as part of that is very important – so liaising with the venue and prioritising time again with rest and trying to plan some fun, fun stuff while. 

Ruby Glaskin Yeah, I guess just scheduling in general again is a much more complex when it’s internationally because you’ve not only got like the holidays that are observed in the country that the show is from, but you’ve also got the holidays that observes in the other country and you’ve also got everybody’s schedules and all of the different season starts and all of that. And so like scheduling just becomes like so key, like think about what is it worth and is it necessary? And I think again, some of this stuff like I’ve done recently with like virtual residencies and stuff like that, like actually a lot of those residencies, so they’ve just involved artists meeting organisations and they meet on Zoom and the organisation will curate a week of kind of artist to artist meetings or meetings with the rest of the venue or whatever it is and like they’ve really yielded some really fantastic results and have resulted in shows being booked, have resulted in ongoing relationships and like it doesn’t always necessarily like international collaboration doesn’t mean you have to go and perform a show in another country. Like there’s so much more to it, especially with technology that we can do that I think is worth thinking about. But also I was going to Nassy, relating to some of the points you said earlier around, like the fact that the people that have currently had access to international touring in a way like we need to, you know, need to be giving space to new people now. And I think there’s a question, I mean, that’s really relevant when we’re thinking about sustainability and environmental like stuff because it’s like it’s all very well to say like, hey, like we should all be touring less and doing less stuff, but it’s like, actually there’s a whole wealth of people that haven’t had access to this type of touring and to international networks that absolutely should. And is it really fair to ask of them now to say, hey, like, think about the environment, you shouldn’t be doing this? And I think there’s just a real question there for me about who gets to do that, who makes those decisions, and actually when is it still worth people travelling and people doing that because of the historic oppression that has happened in this world. 

Nassy Konan You know, working with one of the Swiss artists in presenting his digital online work, you know, that was something that we had done the outreach work together and we went into that and we developed it because the artist is thinking differently about how they should present their work and it doesn’t have to be in person. So. Yeah. No, it feels, I feel like people are scared, though, because they don’t know how to use digital platforms. And I think in lockdown it became more relevant to do and then lockdown was over and it was just like, okay, let’s go back to normal. But actually, you know, like if you want to carry on doing international producing and you want to meet international artists and tour to places, you just want to keep that dialogue open from afar. And then building that and shows that I’ve worked on while I was BAC, we spent like maybe a year before getting them over to, you know, to that place, to the international country, and but in that meantime, we had engagement, you know, online activity that was able to enforce from, you know, us being there in person. And so. Yeah. I feel like, yeah, people should, it should be more of a topic of conversation, you know artist exchange online is is something that could be done – so like British Council they run this programme with you know five, five international producers and five international UK producers to come together and how they could collaborate more on on those kinds of activity. 

Ruby Glaskin Yeah, I think you’re right. Like without COVID, we would probably not even be doing any of the stuff that we’ve been doing. Like, it was really great for COVID to be like, Hey, like, there are other ways of connecting with the world than just flying somewhere. But, but yeah, I also do think like there is still a need for travel and definitely a question of like who is doing that travelling and making sure that it’s the people that maybe haven’t had access to that travel before. 

Nassy Konan Definitely. 

Ruby Glaskin And also what you’re saying about like shows just taking a long time like that, it really is like a long game and like it can be years like, and I think that’s the other thing of like realising that when, when something does happen internationally, like that is like sometimes the result of like five years, sometimes even ten years of like planning. And you can’t also underestimate that feeling of like when you’re there and you’re like, I mean, again, partly because of COVID, but I remember when we finally met the Swiss artists that actually we’ve been chatting to for like two and a half, three years or more – I had definitely by the time they came to London – and it was like, wow, like this actually feels so huge that we’re all in the same space together now. You have to practice patience! 

Nassy Konan And that can be very frustrating because you have to adapt to the way someone is working. 

Ruby Glaskin It is also frustrating because sometimes you just want to get on and do it. And so I think as well, like international projects have a habit of like being very sprawling and there being a lot of also bureaucracy from various funders, institutions, whatever. And like sometimes you’re just like, Oh, can we not just get on and do it? [laughs] 

Nassy Konan No definitely. I think the knowledge is different I guess and the culture is different because the UK is completely different to some parts of the world. 

Ruby Glaskin I mean, I feel like we can probably talk about this for many more hours like Nassy, I feel like because we’ve had some shared experiences but also some quite different experiences, I could go on, but maybe, maybe we should wrap it up!

Nassy Konan What are you working on now? 

Ruby Glaskin Yeah, currently I’m still working with Pro Helvetia, the Swiss Arts Council. And again, like we’re taking a different approach this year, which is to not do an Edinburgh platform, which is feels like the right decision, but also feels like a step in the direction of moving away from this idea of like international showcases and putting all this pressure on this one moment in the year where only a select few artists might get to do it and actually moving towards like doing some residencies, doing some virtual residencies, doing some in-person residencies, doing some like exchanges between Switzerland and the UK. And yeah, kind of seeing what that yields and whether or not that feels like a more like sustainable way to make international exchange happen. What about you? 

Nassy Konan Yeah, like I think I said earlier in this chat, I’m going to Canada representing Greenwich & Docklands International Festival, who I’ve been working with quite closely around touring and just thinking more about how we can have another strand to their program which runs yearly and they want to develop a new showcase, and so I guess I’m going with my hat on and on, like how they run their own showcase and, and using the experience that I’ve had with Pro Helvetia and still doing what I, I would like to do, which is, you know, being someone who’s wanting to exchange with festivals and venues to, you know, for my peers so that they can promote their work internationally one day. 

Ruby Glaskin Great. 

Nassy Konan It’s been really good. And I feel like I’ve just started to get comfortable in the conversation. I’m happy that I’ve done it with you, Ruby. 

Ruby Glaskin I’m happy that I’ve done it with you too Nassy!

Nassy Konan See ya soon! 

Ruby Glaskin Cool, thanks Nassy! 

Nassy Konan Thanks Rubes!

Ruby Glaskin Bye. 

Nassy Konan Bye [laughter]