Jenny Williams BEM & Samina Ali

Transcript

Jenny Williams Hi. My name is Jenny Williams. I’m a producer based in Eastbourne. I am a mixed race woman, in my early fifties, I have Afro brown hair and I’m wearing a rather fetching leopard skin shirt. 

Samina Ali Hi, I’m Samina Ali, and I’m a freelance producer and a freelance consultant, have been for the last 30 years of my wonderful life. Again, like yourself, Jenny, I’m in my early fifties. Can’t believe I’m actually saying that! And I’m from South Asian heritage. My heritage is East African and Pakistani, so I’m Indo… Yeah I can see your reaction there Jenny! Indo East African, British Asian, as I class myself. I’m wearing a pink hijab, a headscarf, with a very selective for today, a vibrant pink lipstick. Yeah.

Jenny Williams I hope that reflects your mood today. 

Samina Ali It certainly does! Getting in with the vibe. 

Jenny Williams So Samina, I just am so looking forward to this conversation. When we first connected, which wasn’t that long ago, we were like ‘Hang on a minute’. Our work has really mirrored our work, our life careers. It’s really mirrored each other. We didn’t know of each other, and we just kind of had this incredible conversation about everything didn’t we?

Samina Ali Everything, yeah. It was literally that moment, you know, what you see in the movies and it’s like literally the eyes met and that was it. Love at first sight!

Jenny Williams It was! And you know, what I found really wonderful is actually seeing, hearing, somebody that had had a career that mirrored mine – because it’s been a lonely, lonely, old time. 

Samina Ali Yeah

Jenny Williams And it’s been so up and down. It’s been full of the joys of making work. Being in an industry that I love, a creative practice that I adore, and it’s been really hard. And it was just this moment where we were able to just flow in and out of all of that. 

Samina Ali Yeah. And do you remember, Jenny, you just said with an opening sentence, and I literally just went straight in and we got it. We got each other. We understood exactly where you were coming from, where I was coming from. The rest is history. That was just literally what 10 minutes of a conversation.

Jenny Williams I want to know about your work, because, as you said, you’ve been doing this a long time. 

Samina Ali For a long time. 

Jenny Williams So tell me. Tell me about what drives you. Tell me about your passion.  

Samina Ali This all came from going back. Let’s just revisit 19, late seventies, eighties, and I got this from my parents, I got this from my mum. She was a real community activist, she was a pioneer, I was born and bred in a small town called Rochdale. Northern Lass. And yeah, my mum made things happen. And not just within the community as in like, you know, doing the outreach, what we call engagement in today’s language, but really more in the creative industries, the arts. And that’s what was going on in that particular town in, in literally the 19-late 70s where I’m seeing my mum actually create and produce, she was the ‘producer’ of the time. So she produced women’s organisations, she led on campaigns, and here’s me literally about 13 years old, watching my mum do this, and be part of that, and it’s in my blood, you know, I’ve grown up and and I’ve felt and I’ve been part of that raw, that rawness.  

Jenny Williams I love that you talk about your mum as producer when probably like I didn’t identify with the word producer until like my mid 30’s, I’m now early fifties. 

Samina Ali Yeah. 

Jenny Williams So I wonder what you would have identified your mum as – as activist, as as creative? What would you?  

Samina Ali Absolutely. I mean, Mum, Mum’s title was she was a teacher, you know. She was a teacher in East Africa, in Nairobi. And then they moved to Pakistan and then from Pakistan they came here when she got married with my dad. And when they moved in the late sixties, Mum was the only person in her particular area where she basically could speak English and she was well versed and educated, so she was able to apply all her skills in those areas and actually the way she produced, you know, groups and projects. Oh, my gosh, Jenny, you know, I mean, she was the pioneer, she was… 

Jenny Williams She was a changemaker in that.  

Samina Ali Absolutely, she was that was it was exactly what you’re talking about there changemaking – 100% trailblazer and those organisations still exist. 

Jenny Williams Oh, my gosh. 

Samina Ali So you can just imagine. But at that time my mum didn’t recognise that. We recognise it now because we’ve gone through that whole kind of like pathway but remember as a child, you know, what I witnessed my mum do and the challenges that my mum faced are quite similar, unfortunately, to what I’ve been facing as a freelancer myself. So mum was an activist, she still is an activist in her own right, leading on campaigns of immigration and race relations, working very closely with the CRE the Commission of Racial Equality, as it was at that time, and so many with in young people, empowerment for women. And so yeah, that’s that’s where it all absolutely started for me. 

Jenny Williams The fire. 

Samina Ali Yes, absolutely. And it’s in my blood. You know, I feel it.

And I was like, right, you know what? I want to do that. I want to tell stories. I want to be part of, you know, making a change. But for me, then it stepped up more because I ended up going into the media world. So that’s where it starts.  

Jenny Williams Did you actually? You started there, you crazy Mama.

[Laughter]

Samina Ali I know, tell me about it! So for me it was more to do with, yeah, I want to go into the media because I wanted to make a change. So for my self, my own story was all about ‘Who do I see on the screen? Who represents me? Who do I connect with?’

And it happened, it was Channel Four and I was watching the news, it was Zeinab Badawi. She was a newscaster. So that was the moment for me. And I thought, I want to be in there. I need to make a change. So I decided that I wanted to go into current affairs and I went to volunteer for a local radio station here in Manchester, which was called Sunset Radio. It was a community station and it was one of the best. And that’s where I faced so many challenges, not in that particular radio station, but just as a South Asian, you know, Muslim woman, young woman. I wasn’t wearing my hijab at the time. However, my name was kind of you know, it was all about that? So yeah, that’s that’s pretty much it. And then stories…

Jenny Williams And then it started. And how long did you do the media for? 

Samina Ali Oh, gosh, I’ve been literally in the media for the last, I’d say good 25 years. So ended up doing a lot of freelance work, presenting, producing and I broke into the BBC, which for me was like the biggest opportunity at that time. And trying to retain your identity and do that, I remember going in the first day wearing my traditional shalwar kameez, which is traditional South Asian attire, with a shawl and walking through the doors of the BBC in Manchester – heads were turning I can tell you that! 

Jenny Williams I bet. I was going to say to did everybody stop and look?

Samina Ali Yeah, seriously. So, it was like, you know, I’m here and it meant a lot. It was a huge statement, but there was a lot that was going on at the time with me, you know, just trying to kind of like find myself who am I, you know, who, who exactly is Samina? So yeah, it was an interesting time. So yeah, I did a lot presented on radio, on the local radio and on TV, Network East.

Jenny Williams Gosh. Career big career. Amazing. 

Samina Ali But then ended up going into the arts because you know, I really wanted to bring that creativity and South Asian music, you know, because I was actually presenting on a South Asian music programme. I wanted to bring that talent, that raw talent into our spaces. And that was here at Rochdale or within the North West in Greater Manchester. So we’re doing festivals, we’re doing Mela’s, you know, breaking on huge, huge names, international names, actually, one of them being Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, who was a huge qawwali star. So, yeah, it was just groundbreaking.

Jenny Williams And this is all through the eighties that you’re doing.

Samina Ali All through yeah, late eighties, early nineties.  

Jenny Williams Wow. I mean, my career started in industry in I think it was the late nineties, early 2000’s. So I remember working at the Tricycle when Tony Blair came in, was that 1997? I think so. And so, much of my work was really through the nineties into the 2000’s. That’s when really I’d cut into the arts industry and I just remember, you know, looking back, that actually those were, just, just as you were saying, it was, it was really challenging, wasn’t it? Really challenging to be often the only person of colour in the room in those art situations, to be in conferences, and to be the only person of colour. Oh, it was just it was just relentless.  

Samina Ali Absolutely. And the thing is, the sad thing is it continued in there for a long while. And in some instances and situations, it still is there. Definitely for myself.  

Jenny Williams So I started in my first job in the arts was at English Touring Opera. And I mean, imagine being in my early twenties. I was brought up in South London. I’d never been to an opera before and I turn up. My first job in the arts is for Opera, I mean, hello!!

Samina Ali I love it!  

Jenny Williams But then, you know, and I it’s just so strange to look back on going from what I thought would be a really traditional career trajectory. So I was thinking that I would work for English Touring Opera. Then I got a job at The Tricycle, now the Kiln. I loved it there, and I thought all organisations were like that because it was really diverse, the audiences were diverse and it was just gorgeous. And I thought all organisations in the arts operated like that. And then I found out they didn’t when I left

And then I just went on this trajectory of working for Local Authority, for Arts Council and thinking ‘I just can’t fit. I just don’t fit’. My value system, the way that I’ve been brought up, the people that I care about, the people in my community. I just couldn’t, it was It was almost like it got painful. Like fitting a square peg in a round hole. It was just like it was unsustainable. And I remember thinking, if I don’t leave, and my sister friends saying to me at the time, if you don’t leave, if you don’t leave this industry and do something different, you’re not going to be in a good place. I mean, my mental well-being was not thriving. And and I think that it’s really important to recognise that. That actually, as much as it being my passion and my joy it’s also been a very, very big source of pain this career, it has taken a lot out of me.  

Samina Ali You know, when you’re talking about pain and you know, you felt really uncomfortable with obviously sitting with that emotion. Would you feel happy and comfortable to share? 

Jenny Williams And I would say, yes, I am very happy to share it and very happy to share it because as we were talking about, we don’t get platforms like this. 

Samina Ali Exactly.  

Jenny Williams To really share what our experiences have been like. So I’m really, really it means so much to be able to do that. And actually by telling our stories, we can actually learn not to do, not to make these cycles happen again. That’s so important to me. But I remember my name was Jenny Edwards back in the day before I was married, and I remember going for interviews and filling in the form and the presumption that I was a white girl because my name is Jenny Edwards, and I’d turn up for interviews and I could see it – I could feel it as soon as I walked in the room and I’d go home and say “I’m not going to get that job”. And I didn’t get that job. And that happened a lot. I remember being wildly ambitious, I’ve been wildly ambitious all my life. And, and that really not being nurtured , or recognised, or welcomed. And, and I think where the pain sits Samina is where, you know, as a young woman in my thirties about to embark on having a family, and what I will say is the people around me were unkind. They were really unkind. In a way that you look back and you go, where did that come from? How did the system allow for that? You know. 

Samina Ali Absolutely. And to a point, you possibly sit there and you reflect first upon yourself that what did I do wrong? You start blaming and looking at yourself. You check in with yourself so many times over and over again – thank you for sharing that. 

Jenny Williams Thank you. 

Samina Ali I get it because it happened to me, where to the point I was asked to change my name. Not to call yourself Samina, you have to call yourself Sarah or even Sam. 

Jenny Williams What? 

Samina Ali I will not name the institution but. Yeah. Yeah. And only on that basis we will give you the job. 

Jenny Williams Uh words don’t even express. What that is. I mean, that is taking away who you are. I used to go to work, and I used to say to my, you know, my friends they’d say, how is it working at X, Y, Z? And I say, it feels like what I do is I walk up to the door and I take off my culture, I take off the robes of my community and I leave it at the door. And I go in and I do this thing in this workplace, which is violent and unkind, and then I come back and I put it all back on again, and I go home. And by removing your name. That is the embodiment exactly of what it felt like. 

Samina Ali They’re asking you to remove you – your identity, identity, your soul, who you are. Just everything. You know, what you belong to your roots, your just everything. And I just looked at him, and said ‘Seriously?’. I mean, he was a white, middle aged man. And I said, no. I just can’t. He said, Well, do you want to think about it?  I said, I don’t need to think about it. It’s just not going to happen. No way. So, yeah, I hear you. And I’m sorry that you went through that. 

Jenny Williams And I’m sorry, too. And I’m also really grateful to be able to share this. I’m really grateful to be able to put it somewhere. I’m really grateful to be able to reflect on it because it didn’t define me. You know, it didn’t, it didn’t stop me. And I, I thought I was going to leave industry a number of times. Have you ever thought about leaving industry?  

Samina Ali So many times. Oh, my gosh. And actually, this particular example that I’ve given you, that was one of the reasons I was like, well, if I’m being asked to do that and to compromise, you know I think I need to have a serious think about having a career change completely. Like, nothing to do with the arts and the media. I need to just literally just go and become whatever else. And that’s just one of the examples. You know, there have been many times which even quite recently, being hit by COVID, which we’ll talk about I’m sure at some point, you know, being a freelancer It just was not ideal. It was painful. Everybody had got hit during COVID, loss of income and earnings and so on, so forth. But the support was absolutely zero, there was nothing happening. 

Jenny Williams Yeah. 

Samina Ali But pure times I’ve sat there and thought you do know what, I’m not being recognised. And that’s the frustration. I’m not being heard. Why? Why is this happening and how come there’s a same person from particular community they’re being heard, seen, recognised. 

Jenny Williams Elevated.

Samina Ali Given the opportunity to to reach, or actually they’re being recommended – we suggest that you actually go and apply to become an executive da da da da so on an so forth, you know, so you start looking at yourself. You think, maybe I’m really like, I’m crap at my job? Do you know want I mean, or you check in with other colleagues that go ‘No Samina, actually you not, maybe you need to go for that’. But there was a huge phase that went on and that was literally the nineties. I’ really faced that a lot. 

Jenny Williams I think the nineties was really brutal, actually. It was really, really brutal. And despite that, and I think that’s where I really connected with you, is that I carried on. And actually I noticed talent leave. And I remember at times when people were particularly at times when they were starting to have families, really extraordinary talent left sector completely. Or went and did other things and then it became something that got squeezed in in the evenings or, and the work was never full time. 

Samina Ali Yeah. 

Jenny Williams And I just remember thinking, I want to do this for full time. I want to do it for my community, I want to tell the stories that need to be told. I want to see a sector that’s, because ultimately I love the sector, and I want to see a sector that can be representative.  

Samina Ali And that’s key, isn’t it, because I just think, well, actually, if I leave, what’s going to happen? What is going to happen, with all the what you’ve built basically, and the trust and the relationships and people who’ve invested in you and just everything that you’ve done. And if you actually walk away now, what’s going to happen? 

Jenny Williams I think that we both had careers that took us in and out of institutions, and I’ve been largely freelance now for most of my career I would say. Now, is it the same with you? 

Samina Ali What happened was I was freelance say late eighties and nineties. And then I got married, had my career break in terms of having the children, and that’s where I just thought like, okay, I need to up my game off that. But quite recently, yeah, there’s a lot more that’s been active in terms of work and commissions coming through. And I think that’s where that whole kind of like where we’re at now, you know, in terms of awareness, education, and more information that’s gone out, and the Internet really.  

Jenny Williams So I want to ask you and this is a really, really hard question, but in your view, I would love to hear what you view as some of your most important work. I mean, you know some of it is about individuals that you met along the way and, you know, you’ve made a really massive difference just sometimes just by being present. And I love that. And those are the things I carry with me and those are the things that give me strength. I think one of the, the work that I’ve loved over the years has been the work that’s that’s been of my own agency. From my own perspective, from my community’s perspective, those are the works that really have meant so much. There’s a gorgeous piece of work I did with the late, great Naseem Khan and an incredible group of folk who did a response to ‘The Arts Britain Ignored’. And that was like, Naseem wrote The Arts Britain Ignored. She was the first Head of Diversity at Arts Council. She wrote this in 1976.

Samina Ali Amazing she was incredible. She was a powerhouse. She made it happen. 

Jenny Williams She did.

Samina Ali I really, really looked up to her. She was amazing. 

Jenny Williams And she scooped people up along the way, didn’t she?]

Samina Ali She did, she did, she did! 

Jenny Williams And it was just really lovely to recognise her work and I didn’t realise that she was in the last stages of her illness. And, and for me that was really important because as we started this conversation, it’s this notion of having archive, it’s this notion of saying that we’re all building, we’re all building something together, and that even though you and I, I feel like I work in the shadows so much, that actually you go you know, it’s really great that where we can see that we’ve built something. 

Samina Ali And we’re doing it in our own hubs, spaces, time, ways, it’s been literally a drip, drip, drip effect. 

Jenny Williams Yeah. 

Samina Ali And God bless Naseem. She was amazing. She was a powerhouse. And I think for me what really stands out is working with mainstream organisations where I’m able to actually be part of that change, I’m able to lead. In particular, kind of like, you know, strategy and diversity, and I’m finding quite recently, a lot more actually, where organisations are actually listening. Which is fantastic. And you know, we’re seeing change happen.  

Jenny Williams Yes, we are. I mean, it’s so exciting. 

Samina Ali And you know, all those years that you’ve dedicated this particular sector, we’re finally seeing, something emerge and it’s not just hopefully a one hit wonder, or a one off, or a tick box exercise. You know, we’re seeing it happen. 

Samina Ali I think this is the first time, and I know we talked about Black Lives Matter yesterday, that I’ve witnessed such mobilisation at such a level and where policies are being written. Inclusivity, the whole EDI, you know is centered around it. Yes, there are organisations, like I said to you yesterday as well, who are doing it because they have to do it, not because they want to do it. But, majority and most of the people I am seeing also that they are wanting to do it, and they’re really, really eager to sit with you and say, right, what’s next? How do we do this? I’m listening. And they’re ready to listen. And that’s all the the leadership, the executive teams.

Jenny Williams It’s so different. I mean, we’re not going in there saying, let’s convince you first, let’s have this conversation. I remember somebody, having an argument with somebody. I remember having a very, very intensive conversation, shall we say, with somebody who was at the top of a very large organisation. And I was the cultural diversity officer of Arts Council and saying, he was like ‘Why do we have to do this?’ And I was saying, ‘Because there’s this thing, it’s institutional racism. McPherson Report. And we’re responding to that and this and this and this’. And he was like, ‘There’s no such thing as institutional racism’. 

Samina Ali What?! 

Jenny Williams Yeah. And it was. And you think actually that work of having to go, okay, now we have to explain, now we have to gather the statistics, now we have to make a case for ourselves and then we’ve got to try and implement change when people don’t want that change, where some people are wary of that change and wary of you. We’re not there. 

Samina Ali Trying to convince. Trying to create that awareness and you know, I remember sitting on panels and discussions and oh, my gosh Jenny, you know, how many discussions did we have? Do you know what, seriously it was like at the end of the day, you’re like having a cup of tea with a tuna sandwich, say thanks for that and walking off and nothing changing!

Jenny Williams And we said the same thing. And actually, again, what what did we say? We need access to resource, we need networks, we need agency. We need to be able to do things with our communities. You know, and actually, the same things exist.

Samina Ali Yeah. Different time, different era, that was but we’re still we’re still having those conversations. Accessibility, and this is something that I always bring back from when I’m doing consultations and roundtable discussions and all the rest of it with communities. And they’ll just say, Well, I want to access a particular venue, I want to access a particular production but that venue or that production is not for me. And when you try to explain to the client actually or an organisation, saying well actually you need to start programming more for a particular community or you know, in terms of access for them to access this. They can’t understand it. 

Jenny Williams You haven’t answered my question any way.

What’s your most important works? You’ve got to tell us, you’ve got to give us one! 

Samina Ali Oh my gosh! So many. Okay. Right. So I worked with Manchester International Festival back in 2000 and I think it’s 15 or 14 and I was given the task to come in as a freelance consultant and it was with a particular producer who I was working with. And the task was to bring together 100 women from different faiths. Oh, yeah, different faith backgrounds.

Jenny Williams Love it!

Samina Ali To produce and create a choir. And honestly, Jenny, all I can say to you, when I heard the brief, the excitement, the elation! 

Jenny Williams Gosh.

Samina Ali You can imagine, you know, all the fireworks going off in my brain I was like, oh this is going to be amazing.

Jenny Williams Goodness. 

Samina Ali So obviously I work a lot with the South Asian communities in particular. That was quite challenging as well because here are women who want to be part of a choir, but then there were certain criterias and so and so forth and sensitivities and barriers, so having to work all around that, anyway, cut a long story short. 100 women performing at the Bridgewater Hall with the BBC Phil Orchestra with Sir John Tavener, and it was actually collaborated with the Sufi queen called Abida Parveen of Pakistan. It was just electric, and it was all world class. And I ended up in the choir. How did that happen?! 

[Laughing]

Samina Ali But it was mind blowing. It was absolutely electric. Yeah. And just to bring, you know, communities together, the whole thing about cohesion, the whole thing about, you know, interfaith and…

Jenny Williams …Intersectionality. And what I love about what you just said is that you said it’s world class. And I keep saying this is that actually when we work with our communities, it’s not about community practice it’s about bringing world class creativity to our community, with our communities, for our community. 

Samina Ali Absolutely. And that’s exactly what happened, because here’s me performing with Sir John Tavener and with, you know, the Sufi Queen Abida Parveen. So, yeah. That was one of the moments – you can check it out on YouTube. The choir was called Sacred Sounds. 

Jenny Williams Yeah. I’m going to have a look. I’m going to have a look. 

Samina Ali It’s it’s literally I mean, if you read the reviews, it’s literally it was like this is chill spine-ing and yeah, it’s just breathtaking and exhilarating. Yeah, it was all for that. It was phenomenal. And the conversations, the dialogue. 

Jenny Williams Yeah 

Samina Ali And, and it was just phenomenal. Where till today we’re still in touch. The core group are still in touch with each other. So it was outstanding. It really was. That’s just one of them 

Jenny Williams So I love that we talked about our archives Samina. I love that we talked about where we, what led us to this road, and actually, more importantly, what led us to absolutely not letting this go. Thinking about leaving and then just not being able to. And I’m glad. I’m glad we both stayed in it. And I just wondered if we could reflect on where we are now because; I do think we are at a moment of change. I do think it’s tangible. I do you think it is going to change our sector in a really positive way and it’s going to impact on our communities, our artistry, our creativity in a way that’s really exciting if we get it right. And my worry is, is that we don’t learn the lessons. 

Samina Ali Yeah, I think what’s happening is when I work a lot with clients and you, you listen to conversations, ideas and solutions that they present. For me in some cases, I feel is – have they really learnt the lessons? Have they listened? You know, when they’ve sat down to do the evaluation, what have they actually evaluated and understood and grasped from that? For myself I do feel that it becomes frustrating for me that I mean, its 2022, and I was facing this in 1991, 92. The same conversations, but a different decade. Different era. So really what’s changed? They’re thoughts that go through my mind. A lot has changed, of course it has, yeah, but we’re still kind of ‘there’.

Jenny Williams Yeah, we are still ‘there’.  

Samina Ali This is it. So how do you move on. You know, why is it that where people like yourself, Jenny, myself and I’m sure other freelancers who are phenomenal in their own right and what they do in the industries and the sectors, they need to be given platforms. They need to be around those tables and panels of discussion to be able to have that, you know, constructive, productive input in making a change.  

Jenny Williams And making that change meaningful, sustainable and and actually something that isn’t about, because what I noticed from the past is that we were only ever given agency, enabled to have the agency to do project, to project, to project. What I think what and what I hope I’m hearing is the change is that it is systemic. 

Samina Ali Yes. 

Jenny Williams And once we enter that territory of saying this is systemic, consistent, meaningful action towards change, that’s when the tip will occur. 

Samina Ali Yeah. Yeah. 

Jenny Williams I also reflect on us, and as producers, I mean, I didn’t I still don’t identify with producer but I don’t know what else to call it.  

Samina Ali Yeah. You know, I’ve resorted to consultancy that I’m a consultant because, you know, producer, director, um consultancy, however, we produce the work.  

Jenny Williams We produce the work. Yeah. And we take that piece of paper.  

Samina Ali Exactly. That’s it. So at the moment, we’re just going to have to stay with ‘ A producer’. But there’s so many, and what I’ve seen as well, that term producer as well, I’m seeing that being quite loosely used now as well, which is great. You know, again, times have changed and.  

Jenny Williams I think I’d prefer catalyser. 

Samina Ali Yeah. 

Jenny Williams Someone that makes stuff happen. Nobody knows what it means anyway! What I really hope going forward is that there is a sense of inter-generational learning that maybe we didn’t have in the same way, we talked about Naseem. 

Samina Ali Yes.

Jenny Williams I hope because there’s a lot of us there’s a lot of freelancers who have been doing this work for a long time. I hope that our inter-generational, lived and professional experience is harnessed and enabled for the next generation so that we’re not reinventing wheels, not starting again, we’re growing from. 

Samina Ali And that’s the whole point where people like Naseem, and hopefully people like us, we’re able to lay those foundations of change and hopefully make it more, better accessible, so and so forth represented, you know, for the next generation and that they don’t end up repeating what we’ve unfortunately had to, or come across those challenges, that we are and have done. But I do feel that we’re seeing that slight change. 

Jenny Williams Agreed. 

Samina Ali It’s a long journey, but the thing is, it’s happening now. 

Jenny Williams It’s happening. 

Samina Ali It’s a big thing, isn’t it? That we’re both saying that.  

Jenny Williams It’s massive.  

Samina Ali And to be part of it, to actually say, actually we were part of that change. You know, when we look back, and  I certainly I was speaking to my husband just this morning asking about the podcast and he said, wow, you know, if only they knew, if only they knew like where we all started and where, where we are at the moment. So it’s exciting, we’re at an exciting part. I just hope I sincerely hope that it’s not going to, you know, wither away, fade away. 

Samina Ali So we’ve talked a lot today, Jenny, in terms of our career, how it started and the challenges, the highs, the lows, and why is it that, you know, I’m still doing the freelance work that I am? So I’m going to ask you now why is it that you have chosen the particular career of being freelance over and above going into a full time job. 

Jenny Williams Yes. So this is really, really thank you for that question. I love being freelance. And I absolutely love being freelance because it equals independence and I love the independence of being able to make change in the way that I love to make change and being quite intentional about my practice, and I can also imagine myself within an institution again. I can imagine that for myself. It’s never off the table. But given and and I have this real dilemma actually all the time. Should I be in an institution? Should I be leading? You know, and then I think, well, actually, I am already leading in my own practice and I love my own practice. Love who I work with, I love the work I do. I mean, it doesn’t get any better than that, does it?  

Samina Ali Exactly.  

Jenny Williams So it’s it’s it’s always, always on the table. Am I doing the right thing? However, in the main, when I’m working freelance, I’m in the right place. That’s how it feels. And I’m, I’m not hurt. You know, I mean. 

Samina Ali Yeah. it relates to me 100%, because it’s not it’s never off the option list for myself as well, that, you know, perhaps I should be working for an organisation or an institute. And it’s crossed my mind so many times actually during COVID. 

Jenny Williams Yeah.

Samina Ali Freelancers got hit really bad. You know, the work that I was doing at the time, which was working in theatre spaces, obviously theatres got hit so bad and everything got shut down and that was the time where I was really tested, I was like I really need to get back into working full time just doing a role.  

Jenny Williams Right. 

Samina Ali But. I just couldn’t, I couldn’t do it. And the reason why freelance works for me is a) my lifestyle because obviously, I’ve got children, young family It serves me in terms of my own personal circumstances. But more so than over and above, everything actually is I’m able to Influence and have an impact on different organisations and work with a huge breadth of diverse organisations globally, nationally, locally and, you know, keep building on that, rather than with one particular person or client. And that’s throughout all sectors, you know, from third sector to public sector to the arts, the media, you know, any institution. And I’m loving it because you can pick and choose as well, because you are at that point, aren’t you – like yourself Jenny?  

Jenny Williams I love that, when you were talking about that, I thought. Yeah me too! 

Samina Ali Exaclty! 

Jenny Williams I think also, you know that is so important, is that, you know, we were talking about this word producer? 

Is that actually, I’m really curious about lots of things. And it’s like pollination, isn’t it? It’s like a pollinator rather than a producer. It’s like they’re just always, always flitting, and being busy and being interested in stumbling across new things. I love that. 

Samina Ali Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that’s what it is. It’s always when you – and there’s nothing more satisfying for me – is that when you’ve absolutely executed your project and delivered, you know, over and above and achieved for, you know, a) for the client, obviously, but b) for the participants and the communities that you’re doing the work, the impact. I can’t explain, that you literally just buzz off that, 

you thrive off it.  

Jenny Williams The bits that I really love is where you just giving somebody a little nudge and it’s just tipped them into this new horizon, this new piece of work, this new understanding. It’s just, it’s magic.

Samina Ali And it is, it is. It is. And the contacts, you know, the relationships that you’re building as a freelancer, it’s just amazing. You perhaps would not get that if you’re working in a full time role. And it gives you the autonomy.  

Jenny Williams Autonomy Independence. Agency. Yes!  

Samina Ali Yeah, yeah, exactly. It’s all those words that you just think. I love this. Even though, yes, we’ve shared a lot of our moments where, and experiences, which have been challenging, painful also – but over and above this is a choice, it’s a decision that both of us have made as women – you know who – again, for me, I won’t use the word ‘colour’ purely in terms of it being dismantled, back you know, through in the eighties, but women from underrepresented communities and literally being able to now hopefully making that social impact and then making that change within the organisations.  

Jenny Williams I think we we can be change makers, I think we can have independence, I think we can have agency. But as producers or pollinators or whatever we choose to call ourselves, do we have power?  

Samina Ali We have power. I have power to make a decision whether I choose to be part of, you know, a particular project or commission. However, I think what happens is I am able to drive my, my influencing decision-making with clients and organisations – the power is given to me to make and lead on certain, you know, strategy and decision making. 

And I think, yes, we do have power, actually, you know, because ultimately we have the power to make a) decision or b) to close the deal and decide, you know what, it’s not actually going to work and I can only do or maximise whatever it is I’m doing here. But if the other person is not willing to take on board whatever it is that I’m advising, or trying to hopefully encourage or help and support them in terms of delivering more, better kind of reach within the communities, then there’s only so much can do. So I have that power to walk away, know what I need to keep is safe. 

Jenny Williams And that’s probably it isn’t it Samina that we have the power. Whereas our early, my early experiences working in some institutions that hurt me, I didn’t have that power to walk away. I didn’t have that power to say ‘No thank you’. I didn’t have that power to say, that doesn’t represent me. It doesn’t represent my community, it doesn’t represent my values. And now I do. In so doing the stories that I choose to tell, the creatives I choose to work with, the organisations I choose to work with, we become it becomes safe for me and for others.

Samina Ali Absolutely. 

Jenny Williams And that’s that’s, that’s personal agency.

Samina Ali It is because you are, when you’re working with an institution – respectfully – you know, to all institutions who I’ve worked with, they’ve been great. But its like as you say, you know, there’s only a certain limit, you are limited to what you can say or can not say and how. And then you got that hierarchy and so on, so forth going on. Whereas when you’re a freelancer, oh, it’s, you know, me myself and I – and, you know, you’re able to – if it’s not working for you because it’s all about your well-being, you know, and feeling safe and like you said and the safety of others as well around you – is to walk away from that. Say, actually, no, I can’t help you change narrative. 

Jenny Williams One of the questions I wanted to ask was about, you know, like all of us freelancers are, I mean, it’s a hard road in terms of managing our money, our finances, how we just we just navigate choppy waters, obviously COVID knocked us all. And I remember starting out – the worst I had was when I was starting out in my freelance role. I didn’t know how to market myself, I didn’t know how to get freelance opportunities, I didn’t know my own voice, I didn’t know what my freelance USP was. So I kind of just went out and went ‘I’m here’. Nobody nobody answered my call, and I think that’s the worst time for me in terms of my survival. That was really tricky. But since I’ve understood who I am, what my niche is, what my passion is, where my values sit. That’s where I’ve kind of been able to carry on. I’ve been okay. 

Samina Ali And I was there, too. It’s only recently that I got my website made, you know, because there was this real fear of putting myself out there. I wasn’t ready to hear any criticism. And I hadn’t put myself out. And it was always word of mouth, and it’s been great work really well. But I think because of where we’re at in terms of the digital, you know, the Gen Z and, you know, this particular era that we’re obviously I had to push myself out a lot more. 

Jenny Williams And it comes back to what you said about being authentic. Once you understand who you are, your authentic practice, your authentic voice. That’s, and that’s the advice I would always give myself now and in the past and to anybody starting, is that any work that you do must fulfil your authentic voice – in the institution they call it a mission statement. You know, what’s your personal value system? The work you identify with, the work you want to do? What’s your USP and thing?  

Samina Ali Absolutely. And it will continue to change. Yes. You change, you evolve. And actually, I want to do more of this and less of that. You know. So you’ll continue to change and hopefully you’ll build upon that and that’s through experience. 

So, Jenny, let me ask you. So in terms of all the amazing work you’ve done, what message would you give out to a) fellow freelancers and b) to institutes organisations who are listening to this podcast today? 

Jenny Williams What a great question, actually. And I think what I would say is that I feel in terms of what I’m passionate about, which is: Equality, diversity, inclusion, belonging. in terms of anti-racist work I think we’re at a really important point and I would encourage those organisations who’ve committed to do the work, I would encourage them not just to do the work, I would encourage them to be outstanding in the space where they are, if they’re a visual arts organisation, be outstanding in that space. If you’re a dance organisation, push the boundaries because now’s the time. And I would ask of them that they find freelance souls like us all those years ago and and look after them over the long term, look after talent. As an industry, we’ve seen what’s happened with the pandemic. We’ve seen how important the freelance economy is to our ecology and nurture – nurture folks, you know, nurture their curiosity and enable that authentic voice to come through. 

What would you say? 

Samina Ali in terms of clients, organisations, institutions, I would like to say to give freelancers the same opportunities and accessibility that their staff have. 

Jenny Williams Oh, I love that.  

Samina Ali I always find that it’s a real kind of like you going because obviously they’re short term or long term, but the work that you’re doing is so like intense because you’ve been brought in to deliver intense work, and the outcome of that, you know, the targets that you have to meet or whatever it might be. But if we haven’t got the resources to be able to deliver that it should not be upon the freelancer to, or for them to expect us to have that because not every freelancer, including myself, I don’t have that. So I expect the client to be able to equip me and ask me. Ask them, you know ask us. What do you need? What do you need from us? It can be anything from an email. It can be anything from the training that’s being delivered to the staff. We need the same rights. It’s as simple as that.

Loving what you’re saying about to be outstanding in everything that they do. Absolutely key on that, and I think for us to as freelancers, to be part of processes and decision making and to be able to contribute to, and help them shape, you know, any of the policies and decision making that’s going on within their organisations. Because what we see as freelancers and what we know and the knowledge that we actually, you know, attain from working with communities, you know, we bring that back into the spaces which have been missed by teams is highly valuable. And I think valuing the freelancer in what they actually bring, you know, what we bring to the table is very important.  

Jenny Williams And please don’t give me any more meetings without biscuits or food. 

Samina Ali Listen, Halal Food for me mate! Ask me. Talk to me. Don’t be afraid to talk and ask because no question is a silly question. I love when people ask me questions, you know, to say, look, Samina, how do you do this, what you do? Well, how would you feel about that? That’s how you grow as an organisation, as a person, to get to know each other and… 

Jenny Williams Yeah. 

Samina Ali One thing I have seen throughout my time is the fact of not being credited for the work that they do. 

Jenny Williams It’s so important.  

Samina Ali So that for me is it’s a big one because we as freelancers shouldn’t really be asking that, this is up to the organisations or whoever you’re working with. They should be saying, look, you need to be credited for the work that you have, you know, obviously produced or working with. So and unfortunately I have faced that myself and then you feel a bit kind of like, well, I do anyway slightly awkward asking, you know what I’ll be, will it be okay for you to credit me for this work?  

Jenny Williams So what would Samina say to young Samina, advice? What would you what would you say, starting out? I imagine you’re starting out, like you’re in your twenties. 

You’re looking good girl! 

[Laughter]

Samina Ali Oh, mate, oh dear Jenny, trust me that’s taken me years back. Oh dear! I think to remain authentic. Full stop. You don’t need to change with the system. And be confident and accept and embrace everything that you’re about.  

Jenny Williams So lovely.  

Samina Ali Because that was the issue at that time. And for me, you know, again, the whole identity, who am I? And having to once when faced with this particular person in the institute who said, change your name, change yourself. Um, even though I walked away from it, but there was a lot of guilt that was associated with it. Yeah. I shouldn’t of done it. If I did do it, maybe I should have done this. You know, it’s all of that. So authenticity is a very big one. Being able to embrace in that knowledge who you are 100% and also I think capture everything that’s going on around you, because I didn’t really appreciate that on my journey. You never do as a young person, you just think: You know what? This is it. It’s fine. It’s always going to be like this, but it’s not. And actually. In years to come, you will look back at it and you’ll just go damn. I should have actually captured that. 

Jenny Williams Yeah agreed. Keep everything, keep everything, keep every report you write. Keep everything, every piece of work you produce keep it. 

Samina Ali And I think to be brave enough to have solid conversations as well Jenny, I wish I had the confidence then a lot more than obviously what I know now. So because of the era that we’re living in and due to the digital era, which is phenomenal, everything’s there for us to access and it’s amazing. So yeah, hundred percent you need to be completely using those digital platforms. 

Jenny Williams I think it’s beautiful. And I’m going to ask another question and that is, or reflect on, what we would have needed had we could we go back and we could actually say, because we talked a lot about the barriers actually, at times it was painful for us. And I really appreciate your honesty as well, because being able to say that is just such a relief.  

Samina Ali Actually, it is. It is quite emotional. 

Jenny Williams It is actually. And I think I can, you know, to be able to reflect back and think, well, what would young Jenny have needed? What would have made the difference? And actually what would have made the difference would be kindness. I think if people are saying, what do we need to do different now? It’s all that intangible stuff, it’s kindness, it’s like consistency of opportunity because opportunities just stopped. You know, you do a project and you’d expect a relationship to build and it would just be shut down. Yeah. And then you’d have to start again.  

Samina Ali Yeah. 

Jenny Williams It would be kindness, it would be opportunity, it would be consistency in a career. It would be having having folks around you that you trusted, and agency for me.  

Samina Ali Definitely. And I think also adding on that the support network. Oh, oh, my gosh. There was none, none. 

Jenny Williams Agreed. 

Samina Ali The support network was so critical who do you turn to?

Jenny Williams And especially when you’re making really big decisions about your next career move.  

Jenny Williams Yeah. 

Jenny Williams And you going, I don’t know who to ask. 

Samina Ali Yeah, yeah. Or trust. Yeah. I mean for me it was, you know, I ended up having a mentor who was a presenter on Sunset Radio she’s called Dawn Payne, phenomenal. You know, respect due to Dawn because if she hadn’t taken me under her wing, I think I would have been really lost. Now how things are in terms of the Freelance World, support Network is key.  

Jenny Williams Crucial.

Samina Ali Absolutely critical. More than anything, not to be left alone, and feel isolated, or that you can’t turn to anyone. 

Jenny Williams I had a mentor in David Bryan, who was just phenomenal at some really critical points in my life and career. And without him, I don’t think I would have survived it to be fair. So. Yeah. Thank you for that because that’s what we needed. And in many ways, that’s what folks are going to need going forward

Samina Ali And this is the thing. I mean, it’s great that we’re sharing this, which is amazing to have this platform to be able to do that. But I just hope that whoever’s going to listen to this, they absolutely, are able to carry that through their organisation and say why this is what’s needed. 

Jenny Williams So if you have three wishes, girlfriend. What would your three wishes look like? 

Samina Ali We’re in a good place. Yes. But in terms of having that particular wish, I would say is, a) to always be invited. Always to be invited, you know, to be welcomed, to be embraced. To be invited to be included.  

Number two. You know, to be accepted, again I know it’s coming in through the whole inclusion and to be accepted, you know. Without actually someone looking at your name on that piece of paper and then making a judgement. Or if they’re speaking to someone, she’s wearing a hijab, a headscarf. Maybe she is X, Y, Z. Not to have that. So non-judgmental. 

Jenny Williams Yeah, 

Samina Ali And I think just literally in an ideal world 

Gosh, you would just. Wish for more love. 

The love and the kindness and compassion is so critical 

in every single relationship or anything you do from going to the corner shop, you know, to education, to your workplace, to colleagues, to family, to everything. [11.0s]

Jenny Williams Yeah. 

Samina Ali So, you know, sprinkle a bit of love everywhere you go. 

Because it’s having that compassion, the kindness that you talked about and having love for each other. You know, that’s where it starts. [8.3s]

Jenny Williams I think for my good self, I would like to see for the folks that have shared this journey, I’d like to see them move from the shadows that we talked about, the invisible. I’d like to see visibility with respect, recognition, I’d like to see us being absolutely mined for information and learning all of that. 

Samina Ali To be recognised – that word. You know, to be recognised. Wow. Your voice to be recognised. Your voice to be heard. You to be seen, the visibility. I know when I do a lot of my audience development work and it’s like… One conversation I had with a client who bless them, they’re amazing, but, she said to me, she said, you know, we are really diverse Samina, and we do have like five members in the audience who are from…

I can’t even say it! 

[Laughter]

Samina Ali Who are from underrepresented Communities, five members. 

[Laughter]

Samina Ali How big is your auditorium again?  Remind me again. The capacity is 2000! Seriously! And I just couldn’t believe it. I just went, Really? 

[Laughter]

Jenny Williams Oh, God 

Samina Ali what do you say to that? What do you say to that Jenny? 

Jenny Williams You can’t make it up! 

Samina Ali Episode 2’s gotta happen! 

[Laughter – to fade out]