Rob Jones

Transcript

Rob: I’m Rob, Rob Jones. And I am a producer, and yeah, I’m a producer. I work for Dance Umbrella, which is a international dance festival. Contemporary choreography festival actually. Which is forty-two years old. And I’m also the creative producer for Brownton Abbey, which is a international performance collective that centres disabled artists of colour and queer artists of colour. That’s quite important – the queer element – and we’re queers. Yeah. And yeah, those are my two main gigs that I do. 

Sally: How did you start out in this role as a producer? 

Rob: Oh, it kind of, it was kind of a gradual evolution we’ll say. So I started out – we’re going way back, twelve, ten, twelve years ago now, which feels like two – and was, I did, I was like a…I did theatre, studied theatre and professional practice, which was like performance making, but also understanding like how to do an arts council application and like how to understand like cultural, the business side. And then I did an M.A. in performance and business, and that was in Coventry in the Midlands. And then I kind of had this weird hybrid life where in the Midlands I was an artist and I’d get funding and would do stuff at festivals. And then I was from London, I’d go home to London and basically was starting to learn how to be a producer, because I realised quite quickly – a) I didn’t feel safe in contemporary performance spaces because it’s predominantly middle class white people watching you do your thing. And b) I needed to get a job. Like I needed to be able to, I don’t know, pay rent and move one day. And I realised that actually the joy for making the art happen was as much as, I got as much out of that as making the art. So that’s kind of, I naturally kind of moved to that side of things. Still very creative, but just kind of more, kind of practical side of things and helping to build, build stuff, make things happen. And then I started out at, I think my first official producing learning role was I was producing intern at BAC. That’s where I met you!

Sally: Yes!  

Rob: Which stayed with me, stayed with me Sally! 

Sally: Me too!

Rob: And that was, and I remember at BAC also understanding like, there was a different kind of idea. I mean, through all different organisations – producers are very different in terms of like, what they’re expected to do. What they have to give to a project. But I guess I really, what stayed with me at BAC was the kind of, the kind of holistic approach to art and really this love of art, and love of artists and really kind of, there was a lot of care there and understanding. I learnt about care a lot there. So that’s where I started.

I’ve worked in a lot of places, but I was at The Albany at the same time, as an outreach worker. And then at The Albany I became the programming coordinator. And then I went from there to work at World Stages London. Which was a big festival of, and that was around 2012 at that point and that was all the Olympics, money, projects being thrown at things. And that was that based at the Young Vic and I helped to run that season and festival of work. And then I went to the Roundhouse, was there for a bit, just over a year and that was really cool. And then I was at Brighton Dome and Festival, I was there for five years. Then I started being more freelance at the same time, and then I went to Dance Umbrella, yeah. I’ve really hopped around organisations but at the same time, I’ve been sort of quietly developing an independent practice too. Which has been really important. Yeah. 

Sally: Yeah, I mean it’s always just so fascinating, I think, hearing what people’s journeys are. And it’s a bit of a learn-on-the-job often, even if you’ve trained, you know! 

Rob: Yeah, and I trained. Like I did two bloody degrees. But you still had to work for free, which isn’t such a thing so much anymore, I hope!

And also just to say like the hopping around was not because I wanted to hop around loads. It was because that when I graduated at a time when there was a recession and and there were no jobs, it was really hard. So I felt a bit like, definitely for the first five years I was like clawing my way up and going where I could and that was really tough, actually. 

Sally: Like project by project, sort of?

Rob: Project by project, fixed term, not fixed contracts. And that’s really hard. Looking back as a young person starting out in your career, that’s a really strange environment and unstable.

And then also chuck in the caveat that often I was in spaces where I was not… I was the only brown person. Which again you don’t quite realise the impact that has on you until you look back over time or that you’re allowed to articulate that.  

Sally: What projects have you learnt the most from and what did you learn? 

Rob: So the first project that I definitely learnt a lot from was Babel in 2012, which was an extremely expensive disaster! That’s the way I can phrase that! And I can say that because I was there, ok! And I love all the people that worked on it. But it was the show that was the pinnacle of this World Stages London festival where like eight of the main producing houses in London comes together. It was big, it was a lot of money there. And they were like, they then brought a company to make a show about London with the people from London. They brought a company from Cornwall to then make a show about London. It was Wildworks and they were great. All the elements on paper were like, this is going to be a hit. This is, this is going to be great. And it really wasn’t. It was a really hard, long, participant – giant – participation project. Which, I’d worked in participation before, but to the scale at which when you’re basically taking over small sections of London – all around Caledonian road and you know. I learnt a lot in terms of what I thought I was capable of, in terms of, you know, convincing people to give me their community centres for a month, or taking over day centres. And working with like huge armies of volunteers and performers. And keeping people well enough to work outside in the cold and all the welfare side of it. 

But the main thing I learnt from that project was just that all the money in the world and the ambition and the buzz – like I became very aware of buzz and hype – don’t mean Jack if really the care’s not there and the intention isn’t there. And, you know, no one thought, actually artists from London should be working with these communities from London. 

And with this massive budget, you could have just taken a different route and gotten a better result. I spent a lot of time with directors as well, and that removed a lot of mystique, of these – these are just people.

Also there was a moment, I spent a long time at Brighton Festival before, two, I was there for just over five years, and there was a year in particular in Brighton Festival was…my programme basically was banging! Like, I had Travis Alabanza. I’d commissioned them to make, just do a live performance with visuals of their book ‘Before I Step Outside I Love You’. And it was the first year when I felt like I – my programme – really clicked and really kind of, you could see… you could see me. You could see me in that programme and you could see, not not necessarily just me, just in terms… people like me and the audiences that would connect to that work. And that was, that was like a moment where ok! And I remember getting FK [Alexander] came and did Judy in The Spire, which again, like I just remember being so entranced by this artist, this incredible, beautiful soul and getting that to Brighton and getting that in the festival. And that was amazing. 

Tarik and I did – which was basically the first unofficial Browntown Abbey – which was Mykki Blanco, Travis Alabanza and Lasana Shabazz. And we did that in The Spire. And that was a moment like, – oh, hang on! And I remember, so hard when you sit in these programming groups and everybody’s white and over the age of 40 and you’re telling them about the importance of making sure there is visible QTIPOC people in the programme. And they’re like, ‘well, how is that accessible to me and who’s going to go to that?’ And I remember having this event and seeing all these people, this community like arrive in this space that were all from around Brighton. And they just don’t come out. And like since then that we’re connected, that community, big time. But just that being a real click moment when after, the day after event – when you would usually feel drained and exhausted – you feel a bit high and a bit kind of buzzy from that. So that was a really special kind of moment. That felt really empowering. And really I was really proud to be able to kind of, share this art with people. And that was a moment of like, oh, this is, this is, this – I could see what I was doing and it also it clicked and worked really well. And that was kind of like a confidence moment. 

And then Brownton Abbey as well is a project that I’m just continually learning from. We’ve started that a few years ago now. And we did, we’ve taken it, it’s been to Canada we took it to Toronto with the British Council. We got a massive, we got a tour, we’re a main commission with Unlimited. I book to the entire UK tour, which got cancelled this year because of COVID. And then we’ve had to like, steer that over and make the digital version. But that’s been brilliant to make happen and to work. Basically to realise that you don’t have to do it. You know, you can work in a different kind of space and have a different kind of space for artists. And that’s been really important to understand that. To be really intentional about the kind of process that you want your artists to kind of, go through and to support them fully to make great work. And also especially for POC artists to make sure that they’re not making work that’s connected to trauma. So often that’s, well so often that’s what we’re told, we’re all we have to offer in spaces. And I think some people get that, lately. But that really hasn’t been the case for a long time. So just the kind of the… I would say the community and the… I guess the power of it and understanding, a lot, like it’s something I kind of like I have to do. Rather than like a job at times. Like it definitely is work. But I learnt, yeah, I learnt a lot about myself through that. 

And about not… basically being your authentic self. And really not… sometimes I would have to code switch. I could really code switch, really. But you do find yourself doing it at points depending on where you’re working, how you are. And that’s gone. That’s been gone from me for a long time now. 

Sally: I mean you’ve talked quite a lot in that sort of moment there, but about how you define the role of producer in relation to your work, which I presume actually is in multiple ways!

Rob: It changes depending on the day. Depending on what has to happen. And who I need to be! So for a producer, I just have to be myself first, like fully myself, my authentic self. But I start from there whether I’m going to Dance Umbrella or Brownton Abbey. And you get the same Rob. I think I remember learning at BAC they were like – you are the one who makes it happen. Ultimately, you hold, I hold it, I hold, I hold the projects. I hold the programmes. And whatever needs to happen within those, within those contexts, is what I do. Yeah, what else is the…? Yeah, you’re a fixer. Often I feel like a fixer at times. 

So a lot of time it’s about that kind of foresight. Seeing any issue and kind of cool, spotting stuff. Being very risk averse at times. Then yeah, you have to understand like, the money – well! And to be able to hold that. And also be flexible is important. Like you’re the one that needs to be able to encourage flexibility at times and to know where those spots are. 

Like a producer at say, like the National Theatre is very different from a producer at BAC, to an indie producer. Anyone can be a producer. It doesn’t actually put everybody on a level playing field. And its kind of a term that means you’re there to help work on it and to make the thing happen, and advocate and protect those artists in to, in the best possible sense. But then in some, like a producer at the Southbank Centre is more like a general manager. Yeah, you’re the one who pushes. And a good, good push, A bad push. But you’re the one who has to keep that motion and to keep that momentum for a project often. 

So you can be like an artist producer and you’re very focused on just making a specific art happen, and it’s a lot more kind of personal. But then as a… you can be a programmer and still be quite personal. But there is a… there’s a distance as a programmer. I think from ultimately, you know, the date. You set the date, you make the framework, you fill the framework, and sometimes you’re… sometimes you’re involved in the making of the art but then that’s when you turn into a producer and you’re supporting, to then get into the framework, which is the festival or the season. And then you’re always a couple of steps ahead. So even when, you know, you’re delivering your festival, you’re already on the next year. So there’s this constant kind of a jumping and splitting of yourself. 

When you’re producing, yeah you can be a lot more present and in it, and doing that thing. Focusing on that project, that art, that product. Product, producer. Like it’s all one thing, but that kind of that’s… those are the differences that I see. And you do, you can be one and flip between both and yeah!

Sally: What do you wish you’d known when you were starting out? Or you could think of it as, what would one piece of advice be for your younger self or a younger producer? 

Rob: I didn’t used to realise how anxious I was. And how anxious being in predominately white spaces made me. Because I wasn’t… I was just good at carrying on. I was just good at keeping, keeping things moving and I didn’t have the language for how I was feeling in certain spaces. I only had, like behaviours and reactions and then I just keep it pushing. 

And I wish I’d clearly understood my value quicker and been clearer about where my boundaries were. But these are all things that you don’t – no one teaches you and no one talks to you about this stuff. And you’re told to like just be yourself, you’re great. But at the same time, not realising I am incredibly… not realising you’re incredibly valuable to them in that space. Especially if you’re brown! Especially if you’re brown! There’s some good learning there, that I am definitely unpacking and I wanted to… I would, yeah. I wish I kind of got there quickly in terms of just keeping… it would have been nice to just have other people like me in a space. 

Everybody set your day rates, don’t drop them lower. You don’t have to say yes to every opportunity that comes your way or to lovely little bits of work that actually aren’t paying you enough money for the time that you need to put into them. And it’s okay to talk about that and to say that out loud.  

Don’t idolise people. Just like, love art. Be good to yourself. Take care of yourself and then just try your best to keep it. Yeah. Keep moving in the direction that feels healthy to you. Yeah?

Sally: Yeah! That is some good advice!

Rob: Celebrate as well. It’s really important that you celebrate because we don’t celebrate. We just move on to the next thing. 

Sally: Move on to the next thing, yeah yeah.

Rob: It’s important innit? Make a ritual. Have your own ritual to celebrate and be… be just sort of take in the good of what it is you’ve actually managed to make happen and share that with people and be proud of that. 

Sally: Well, I mean the… there’s well, you’ve touched on a few of these things. But what are the key differences that you’ve experienced producing independently and within cultural organisations? 

Rob: I have like a tandem career. Yeah, where I’m both an independent producer and I work as I run a festival programme. And that is quite important to me. That I have both kind of arms, and it’s not something I would recommend to everybody. And also I do my independent work because that feeds me in a very specific way and I need to do that. And I need to be part of building that community.

Every building or place has its own culture and you have to kind of, you have to learn to fit in with that or to kind of go against it. You know, you have to learn how to speak to it, how you want to. And there’s a lot of energy that goes into that. Things can move a lot slower when you’re within organisations. Stuff is a lot more focused in terms of – especially within NPO’s – it’s about how you’re perceived on the outside and how, you know, you’re reporting. How it’s getting back to Arts Council and how it’s kind of, there’s a lot more kind of that’s really ingrained in terms of decision making in the steering of the ship. As it should be in a way. But what that means is sometimes things are not intentional and more about ticking the box and it’s more about actually, we’ve got to hit these marks to then keep, get our next lump of money and to secure our funding. So the… with the best will in the world, the kind of the… the overall kind of like goals and intentions aren’t always necessarily about artists.

Working independently, you have a lot more control. You can move quicker. You can change course quicker as well. Again though, when as an independent producer, the boundaries can be blurred. And so having to really work to kind of – that we’re working now, OK. Let’s have friend time, and we do. We’re better at kind of like switching between the two. And you can be, you can be bolder. You can, you know, you don’t have to, you know, you can say what you want to say with your projects and you can be quite kind of,  you can be a lot more open and yeah, targeted I guess in terms of like, what communities you want to connect with, what artists you want to work with. And that’s been just an incredibly important experience for me to have. Those skills, and actually the skills I have from one, I bring to the other. And the skills I get from the other, I bring into the one. And I feel it’s really, they both pollinate, cross pollinate and they definitely…one makes me a better producer within an organisation because I’m very aware of what actually its like out there. So there’s learning that can happen, which is good. And also because I’m an independent producer, but in terms of access what its taught me – working within a company that centres disabled artists and disabled queer marginalised artists – there’s a real, yeah, there’s a lot to unpack there. And there’s a lot to kind of, hold. And to make sure things work right. You want them to have a good time. If they’re not enjoying it is not worth doing. That’s kind of our ethos at Brownton.

Sally: Brilliant. Well, and the final things which is – is there anything, or a key thing that you feel that allow people a sort of longer… longer career yeah!

Rob: Right? Because that happened! The burnout is real. 

A few things. I think it’s really important that producers are credited and visible in organisations and independently. But people need to be credited for their work, and I think that would help people to understand kind of the mechanism / mechanisms at play. I think it’s really important that producers are made more visible so that there’s kind of this understanding of – oh, that’s what that is.

In terms of what that job actually is – because I think it’s a really interesting job and it’s a really varied job and quite an exciting job at times – and I think that could be really attractive to people if they got that. 

I think there’s something about progression routes as well. Because there just aren’t any. And I think that’s also an economic thing at the minute. If there are better progression routes, more emphasis on community. Especially for independent producers to connect. And there needs to be more diversity in who those producers are like in terms of disability, race, gender, all of it. And there needs to be more. There’s only really still predominantly one type of person doing the job. And when you look at the spread, and that’s not OK. Because there’s not one type of artist and there’s not one type of art. And it’s still something, that is, would really shift things and kind of help to mix it – in my mind! Yeah.

And money! Give everyone more money, obviously. That’s just a given. Or just spend the money better. Nobody should be working for free, ever, anymore. 

But like, burnout is real and people dropping off – which is not being able to survive – is, I mean just the same way, you know, we’ve seen what’s happened with the pandemic and how artists have like, just dropped off. Have just dropped off! And no one’s…but the buildings have been kept safe and the people that are in the buildings are safe. Well, some are. Not a lot actually anymore now. But it’s all disintegrating. But there’s, you know, the structures don’t quite work. That’s what we’ve learnt. So new structures need to be put in place now. So let’s see what thinking can come out of this, hopefully.  

Sally: Good final thought there, Rob. 

Rob: Thanks, Sally.